#98 Rebecca Jean-Charles | It Takes a Village: Community Building and Unschooling

Traditional schooling isn't the only path to socialization for children. In this conversation with Rebecca, we explore how homeschooling and unschooling empower families to build communities that align with their values.

We discuss how these approaches encourage children to form meaningful, inclusive social networks across diverse age groups. Our talk delves into neighborhood dynamics and the idea of intentional living as an alternative to traditional setups.

Rebecca shares her perspective on how flexibility in diverse communities allows families to adapt their lifestyles without rigid constraints.

We also discuss the unique experiences of unschooled children and the importance of fostering inclusivity in creating supportive environments.

🗓️ Recorded December 4th, 2024. 📍 The Addisons, Withyham, United Kingdom

Follow Rebecca Jean-Charles:

• https://www.facebook.com/RebeccaJeanCharles
• https://www.instagram.com/ittakesavillage.se
• https://ittakesavillage.se/

Chapters

• 0:00 Redefining Socialization Outside of Schools
• 18:31 Creating a Nourishing Neighborhood Community
• 27:24 Building Supportive Neighborhood Communities
• 40:39 Embracing Help and Setting Boundaries
• 56:23 The Role of Parenting and Grandparents

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jesper Conrad: We are together with Rebecca again because we really enjoyed our talk and well, first of all, welcome. Hi. Good to see you. 

[00:00:09] Jesper Conrad: So Rebecca, one of the things we, we talked about , is, creating community , as we have our children at home like you do, , then it might be something we, think more about than, uh you do if you just have your children in the normal rhythm of, , society where, oh, they're in kindergarten, then they're in school, et cetera.

[00:00:36] Jesper Conrad: , And one of the questions that we are often met with this kind of, , in my sense, stupid. So how do they socialize where I think a much more interesting question is, , which kind of, , village or community do they grow up in? , what is there for them? It's a huge subject and I do not know where to start.

[00:00:58] Jesper Conrad: So here we are. 

[00:01:00] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my big project is called it takes a village because I very much. believe that that is such a main part in our lives and in my life and our family's life. And I also believe that the question, I, I think maybe there's a misconception, conception of many people who think when they're about, Thinking about homeschooling, it's like happening in the home, and then, I mean, most people's homes are empty during the day, right?

[00:01:30] Rebecca Jean-Charles: There's nobody in the homes, because everybody is like at school or at work. Um, and I believe that the expression just was taken to, to, they, I mean, school means just, Like another building and like that with home, we just take the responsibility home or something But it doesn't mean that we are actually physically sitting locked up in our Basements, our dark basements all day long Or ever, or don't even have basements and I believe what happens is So much for homeschoolers, so unschoolers, so well schoolers is that we consciously create community around us.

[00:02:20] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And that's also the beauty, right? And, and my question is often do kids actually get socialized at school or how do they get socialized? Socialize and is that something I would want? And I know already, I don't want that. And I'm, we just have a volunteer staying, um, with us and she's so amazed of all our kids and how, you know, how they are just with ease, communicating with kids of different ages, with grownups.

[00:02:51] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And it's just, and they are just so friendly and respectful and so on. And I believe that is just a natural consequence of them being raised in this environment, where they are met with a lot of respect. And then we go maybe back to our last conversation about consent. And in school, unfortunately, there's very little consent.

[00:03:17] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And also very little consent about who we are actually spending time with. And, um, that makes it really challenging, I think, for real good, like, practicing real good, good, um, socialization or, or relationships. How do we practice good relationships and I believe a part of this is also that we get to choose who we want to be with and who do we feel not aligned with or whose energy don't we want to be around and that doesn't really isn't really possible at school so I believe that's such a huge benefit for us.

[00:03:59] Jesper Conrad: Well, what you said made me think about if we go back, I looked at the numbers at one point, uh, back to my childhood, I, my big sister, she wasn't in school. My mom was at home, uh, she wasn't in kindergarten. My mom was at home until my sister started school. And I was, um. It wasn't considered weird back in the 70s.

[00:04:28] Jesper Conrad: And I was like, okay, let me look into the numbers. And actually it showed that nursery homes like from zero to three years, it was like 15%, 15, 25 percent max were in that in the early 70s. And now it's 95. And that is, uh, in a 50 years, uh, development, which is like, okay, that, that is wild. Why has that happened?

[00:04:55] Jesper Conrad: And, and what it made me think about now when you talk was. If I wondered, if I looked at my life where I am now and is thinking, so what do I want my kids to explore and meet during their upbringing? How would I want them to be socialized? How would I want them to, I don't like that word, but how would I like them to grow up?

[00:05:21] Jesper Conrad: And if I didn't have this normalization of school is something you just do. What I can say to myself. I would prefer my child go somewhere where I am not, and is together with 25, 28 other people the same age group, because I think that is good for what? If it's framed like that, it's kind of a weird construct.

[00:05:45] Jesper Conrad: I don't think I would do that. I 

[00:05:48] Cecilie Conrad: think we have a key word here that we also have when we talk about education, and that is freedom. That is, that it is to be voluntary. And did I interrupt? No, 

[00:06:01] Jesper Conrad: no, no. Please go. 

[00:06:03] Cecilie Conrad: I think that the forced social field happening in the school setting is what's really the problem.

[00:06:14] Cecilie Conrad: It's, it's the involuntary situation. And we always said we don't care. We don't often say it any longer. I don't know, maybe we just move in different circles. But in the beginning, when we kind of had to defend ourselves, Uh, we, we often said that the social skills they can learn in schools, and only in schools, we don't want our children to learn those social skills.

[00:06:41] Cecilie Conrad: That was one thing. And the social experience you can only have in school that you cannot have outside of the school system. We don't want our children to have that experience because it's horrifying. That said, it's also a true fact that humans are social, and whatever social setting we are in, we learn to be in.

[00:07:05] Cecilie Conrad: So if for some weird reason we would have to be in school for a while, we would learn to adapt to that. It's not like you're missing out on a skill that you'll need in another situation. Let's say, so social life is so many different things and we learn to handle those things by being exposed to them and also by leaning to someone who knows how to do it, which is not your peer, it's your parent.

[00:07:30] Cecilie Conrad: Or your elder sibling, or your aunt, or your neighbor, it's, and, and that's one of the really skewed things about that, that, that really goes wrong when people think that you learn social skills by being in school. You don't. You learn social skills by discussing them. What happened over there in that weird context with someone who knows and someone who can help you understand what happened.

[00:07:54] Cecilie Conrad: So, when we are exposed to a school setting, we're not learning how to handle a cocktail party. And when we're exposed to a cocktail party, we don't know how to attend an opera. And when we attend an opera, we don't know how to sit down at a casual family dinner. It's, it's the social situations that we are in and that we get to, to experience with people who we trust, who loves us unconditionally or almost, like the neighbors and, and the aunts.

[00:08:26] Cecilie Conrad: That's when social skills are being actually learned. So that weird thing of the school being, Oh, that's where you learn social skills. It's some, I don't know what's going on in people's minds. I mean, it's not like I'm super smart when I'm saying these things. This is common knowledge about how people learn social skills.

[00:08:49] Cecilie Conrad: I have been taught at universities, and it's been so for 30 years. It's not like a big deal. Yet, whenever you take your kid out of school, first question is, how will they learn social skills? 

[00:09:03] Rebecca Jean-Charles: I've often thought, you know, when you think of, of Indigenous societies, or, you know, cultures where, or just time, like hundreds of years back when there was no school, and how did, Kids then learn all these skills and I've been thinking it was so natural that there was way more little people than big people.

[00:09:32] Rebecca Jean-Charles: So one child was born and another one and another one, but like the setting was already given. by the people who were already there, the older kids and the grownups and their grandparents and so on. And then like one by one dropped in. But the setting that we have that we create, like, for example, in kindergarten, that you have one adult and 30 kids, they're suddenly like coming together.

[00:10:04] Rebecca Jean-Charles: That is very unnatural. And then of course, I totally understand. It's, It's like impossible for one grown up to suddenly handle all these little humans who all have like big needs. And then we need to come up with these artificial rules and I think in a, like, in a more traditional setting, it, you don't have to make all these rules because the children just learn like by experiencing it.

[00:10:37] Rebecca Jean-Charles: But in order to experience, you need to have people around you who model it. But in kindergarten, when you have one grown up and 30 kids, 30 kids who've never been there, Like, it's impossible for that one grown up to model it, and like, it's, I don't know, we just got this, 

[00:10:59] Cecilie Conrad: somebody to model it. It reminds me of the speaking thing.

[00:11:01] Cecilie Conrad: Have you noticed that, that children who are in nursery, they can't speak. They speak this funny language, this baby language. They pronounce things wrong. They don't get the grammar. They speak. So, my, my kids who were not. In nursery, we very often got that comment, Oh, they speak so well, they must be so smart.

[00:11:25] Cecilie Conrad: They're learning to speak so quickly. And I, well, maybe my kids are smart, but, but I think mostly they grew up surrounded by people who could already speak. 

[00:11:39] Jesper Conrad: They were 

[00:11:39] Cecilie Conrad: not dropped in with 20 other children who were just learning. They were just growing up and we never spoke baby language with them. We just talked without kids.

[00:11:51] Cecilie Conrad: And so when they were two years old, they would speak normally. Maybe their vocabulary wouldn't be what it is today, but, and, and it's kind of the same thing about the social socialization, which, I mean, you drop people in who don't know anything and then they have to learn from each other, which is obviously impossible.

[00:12:12] Cecilie Conrad: Absolutely. 

[00:12:13] Jesper Conrad: There's a Danish researcher who actually made a study on Ditch, and he called it kindergarten language, and it is proven that if you go to kindergarten, your vocabulary is smaller than if you have grown up without it in a setting of other people who speak.

[00:12:32] Jesper Conrad: Because as Cecilia say, you, you have grounded them together with people who are on the same development level of speaking as they are, which there's no natural inspiration to hear. It's the immersion. . I become better at speaking Spanish when I'm immersed with Spanish speakers. Yeah. And, and it's more or less the same.

[00:12:54] Jesper Conrad: , it's not rocket science at all, but it's just wild that we, we look at it as, oh, we sent them in a place where there's so many other on the exact same level of development as them. What is that to aspire to? Yeah. We have a good friend, Chris, who, uh, Chris Edward, who says, when you know what you don't want, you also know what you want.

[00:13:18] Jesper Conrad: It is kind of easy sometimes, and it's a good example, and I, not to bash schools, uh, but by looking at the weirdness going on in schools, uh, it's kind of easy to point out, but can we, it could be interesting to say, okay, I can see all these things as being a little weird, but what would I actually I prefer when I'm creating a, a, a childhood, a nest for my children, a village for my children.

[00:13:48] Rebecca Jean-Charles: What 

[00:13:50] Jesper Conrad: would you see as an ideal? I'm not talking about what you're doing in your life, but what is your ideal of how we could bring up children? 

[00:14:00] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Absolutely. I actually just want to bring in a quote that I found the other day, and it goes, let me just see.

[00:14:13] Rebecca Jean-Charles: It is by a guy called Phil, and I can't pronounce his last name. Today's society is yesterday's classroom. Today's classroom is tomorrow's society. And that is also what I, that resonates really a lot with me. And to come back to your question, I, a few years ago, I came up with the expression nourishing neighborhoods.

[00:14:45] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Like, I really love the idea of living in nourishing neighborhoods, which is a neighborhood where people actually are present, like people of all ages are actually present during the days. So it's not that everybody leaves and it's a deserted place, but people are actually present and the children in my vision are not at school, but they are raised in this neighborhood and people go about like the grown ups go about whatever they're doing and At least in parts of the times, they welcome the kids to join them and to observe them and to contribute and to ask questions and to be part of, of their lives.

[00:15:37] Rebecca Jean-Charles: So it's, it's, I mean, also that it's not rocket science and it's also nothing new. It's how it has Like forever as humans. And in that way, the children get to be around different humans and they can return back to their homes when, when they need to, and they have hopefully. apart from their own parents and maybe any other close relatives.

[00:16:11] Rebecca Jean-Charles: They also get to know the other people in the village and the neighborhood and they have other grown ups that they really trust and that they can turn to if they need to process anything or want to share anything or have any questions or, yeah, need, need help or digestion help. And that's pretty much it.

[00:16:40] Rebecca Jean-Charles: That's my biggest vision. 

[00:16:44] Cecilie Conrad: It's a beautiful one. I'm just being a little skeptic. Because

[00:16:54] Cecilie Conrad: That would be so nice. Except for me personally, because I can't sit still. So I don't want to live in one place, but I mean, then I could move, maybe move around between five, six different villages like that and be like the, the, the circus arriving. I don't know. It's just the reality. We have to face the reality as well.

[00:17:15] Cecilie Conrad: And the reality is that you have 99 percent of everyone going to office jobs and schools. So how do we. create that kind of community in the reality of the here and now. And I've just looked at too many conscious community. Is that what it's called? 

[00:17:33] Jesper Conrad: Intentional. Intentional 

[00:17:35] Cecilie Conrad: communities. And I feel they become such a forced reality for me.

[00:17:41] Cecilie Conrad: And I'm not a big fan of rules. I'm actually a I have real problems with rules. So I find we live, we live in countries and they have rules, and the international society has rules, and I have to kind of navigate that, if not obey. Sometimes I actually have to obey the rules. And then if I have an intentional community, I have like a circle within the circle, within the circle, within the circle.

[00:18:08] Cecilie Conrad: with even more rules. So I, it repels me. I'm like, I can't have that. I can only live in a conscious community as long as it now intentional community, as long as there are no rules, as long as you know, once you start writing down the rules, I think you have problems. So my only dream would be, could we have a village where normal people also live?

[00:18:34] Cecilie Conrad: They go to their office jobs, they do their things. And we, the strange ones, we just come in, in larger quantities and live more people there. Uh, so that we have some of the neighbors nourishing and some of them doing their normal things so that I can preserve my freedom to be who I am and I can create little social bubbles with people I like and I can be kind and polite to those that I maybe don't.

[00:19:04] Cecilie Conrad: I mean, I don't dislike people, but some people just don't really speak to my soul and that's all good and fine. So that's just why I'm a little, um, 

[00:19:14] Rebecca Jean-Charles: is that doable? That's exactly what I'm talking about. And I actually experienced have experienced these places. Exactly this, because I know that you're absolutely not the only one who has those, like, who feels claustrophobic when hearing these rules and, and all these requirements that a lot of these intentional communities like ecovillages, they have, like, you need to commit with, I don't know, certain amounts of money or certain amounts of community work or whatever every week or month or whatever.

[00:19:49] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And that feels for a lot of people more repelling than attractive and I have experienced that myself with this nourishing, that's why I call it a nourishing neighborhood. It's like a normal village, a normal place where anybody can live and you don't need to be vegan or western price eater or no sugar or no whatever.

[00:20:13] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Yoga, meditation. Yeah. Like you think right away situation. Yeah. Like, like you would move to any place. You also don't have to commit to, I'm never, ever going to give my kids any sugar or whatever, or meat, or, you know, you can choose yourself what you want to do and you can, um, you can decide. And then in my experience is also that we can also have really great community and support with people who are not.

[00:20:47] Rebecca Jean-Charles: homeschoolers or unschoolers. In fact, I believe that we sometimes get so, um, get a bit too stuck with the idea that we, that it's best if we only hang out with the people who are very, very similar to ourselves. It's the same with, you know, parents are thinking like, my kids are two and four. So I also want to.

[00:21:15] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Find people who also have kids that are two on four years old. Um, but what about if we are actually a much. Better support for each other. If we are a more diverse community with people of different ages and people who have different resources available to give into the community and, you know, just before this call, for example, I went out to feed the chickens of the neighbor who's gone today.

[00:21:46] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And, like, she's in no way any homeschooler or unschooler, and it's just so beautiful and precious to see how we actually also really well can surround ourselves and mix up with people who are living a very different lifestyle. And that's sad. Sorry. And they can still be super respectful of, you know, the way we live, even though they choose something different.

[00:22:18] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And we can do the same for them. True 

[00:22:23] Cecilie Conrad: that. And then at the same time, I'd say over the years, of being an unschooling family with children going from being two and four and newborn and, you know, little, little people, uh, to now being, you know, walking towards being young adults, they get more selective. And it's not that they don't respect some people choose to use schools.

[00:22:50] Cecilie Conrad: My experience is just that they don't connect well. And maybe it's better now that they're getting even older, though I don't see anyone I'm scanning while speaking in their friend group who are in school. Do what? 

[00:23:11] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. To have some. Maybe a few. Maybe 

[00:23:13] Cecilie Conrad: a few. But anyway, it doesn't matter. When they were in between, they had real problems connecting with other children who were in school.

[00:23:25] Cecilie Conrad: Actually, they, they did prefer it. They did ask me, can you please, Yeah, we need to go to some homeschool meetups. We need to find tribal. 

[00:23:35] Jesper Conrad: I remember once, uh, which were we were in La Palma, met a family and they had boys the same age as our youngest. And we were like, Oh, it could be cool. They could hang out.

[00:23:45] Jesper Conrad: But then I've used time thinking about it afterward. What was it that went wrong in the, the two young boys communication. And it was, The way, uh, the, the school boy tried to get in contact with our boy was with, What from a school perspective, maybe it would be friendly teasing. I tease you, I, uh, so the start of the communication would be, I kick the ball at you, at you, at you, not in a friendly way, but like in your back.

[00:24:19] Jesper Conrad: And then you say, don't do that. And you run after me. And then we start hanging out. So it was a weird way of communicating, which started with, uh, Almost a social attack, it felt like when we looked at it from our very peaceful way of being together. Um, so yeah, there is a difference in the way of communicating if you have been brought up without, uh, being in these weird social environments versus, uh, not.

[00:24:51] Jesper Conrad: Um, how, how do you go about communicating? starting to, uh, nurturing neighborhood, uh, feel when you, where you are, if you are in a new place, do you just go to your neighbor and say, hi? Because when I look back at where we had lived, um, I'm like, it's, it doesn't feel like it's natural anymore to go to the neighbor and say, Hey, let me know if you need help with anything.

[00:25:21] Jesper Conrad: And Hey, can you help me with something that could be cool? Uh, everyone has their own, um, they have their own trampoline in the backyard. Everyone has their own, uh, like chainsaw. Everyone has their own ladder. So there's no interconnection. Can I borrow this of you? You can borrow this of me. So. we have become so small units and so alone somehow.

[00:25:46] Rebecca Jean-Charles: That's why I like to be in small places, actually, because, you know, a little bit like not so in the middle of this, Busy, oversaturated world, but in places where there's people who don't have a chainsaw and don't have their own trampoline and then it happens, exactly what you're saying, and I believe it's, um, like, I want to go a little bit back also, I, I absolutely agree, like, my kids I've never spent time with any school kids actually, so, but I like for the adults more I was thinking that, that I can absolutely also see a lot of benefits of being with all kinds of people.

[00:26:37] Rebecca Jean-Charles: all kinds of people and we can, you know, we can still have it good together and support each other even though we choose different lifestyles. But I do believe absolutely that it's so vital and so supportive to have other families in our close Um, in our everyday life who live a similar lifestyle. Also, I remember, especially when my kids were smaller, like you said before, when you know what you don't want, you also know what you do want.

[00:27:12] Rebecca Jean-Charles: For me, it was though that I felt I know I don't want to punish my kids. I don't want to talk to them in certain ways, but I had no model of how to actually, what to actually do instead. And for me, living, like seeing in my everyday life, how other parents talk to the children, how they support children, when they are in a conflict, what kind of values they are living, that has been a life changer to have this, like, see it with my own eyes and have these real life examples.

[00:27:55] Rebecca Jean-Charles: That has been super precious and I can still sometimes today hear in my ears that I'm like a little parrot to something that a mom many, many years ago said to her own child. And I copied it because it felt like big inspiration to me. Ah, this is also how you could speak to children. So I really, really believe that that is very helpful and very inspiring and Also, it gives our children the possibility to, to create these relationships that are based on similar values and what I believe what is really, really important or helpful that we.

[00:28:42] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Are consciously calling that village. And I actually just recently hosted a workshop called calling in your village where I gave like different tools. Um, that's a little bit too long to fit into a shorter conversation, but. One of the things I shared is that I believe it's really important that we actually make ourselves visible because what I experience is sometimes families are just sitting there and saying, Oh, there's There's nobody there who we can be with and so on.

[00:29:19] Rebecca Jean-Charles: But if we're just sitting at home and waiting for somebody to knock on our doors, it's not going to happen, most likely. So we need to somehow go out. And of course that can be a bit challenging, especially if we don't want to be all over social media and be You know, share too many details, but I believe we need to do something to share that we are there to shine our lights.

[00:29:48] Rebecca Jean-Charles: So there's this thing, shine your, shine your light brightly so that the other weirdos can find you or something like that. I think we need to do something. And And that could be posting on Facebook or in different groups or on Telegram or whatever platforms we're using. And, Really going out and saying, hey, this is what I'm looking for.

[00:30:16] Rebecca Jean-Charles: That is, this is what I need. And there are so many people who are looking for something like this. So we need to just find each other. And the beauty of. Living in a nourishing neighborhood is that we don't have to discuss for 10 years if we can somehow agree on certain rules and values, because we can still, like, we don't have to agree on all the things we can just agree on, okay, you eat the food that you like, we eat the food that we like, and, you know, we, that doesn't mean that we can't hang out together or that we can't do projects together.

[00:30:58] Rebecca Jean-Charles: But 

[00:31:00] Jesper Conrad: how do you start?

[00:31:04] Jesper Conrad: How do you start finding a nurturing neighborhood if you are sitting at home behind the television screen or the phone and it's like, Oh, it's kind of lonely. It's good. I have social media to distract me. How do you go out and do you just. In your situation, have you just knocked on the neighbor's door and say, Hi, here I am?

[00:31:27] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Not knocked on the neighbor's door, but I have written a lot on Facebook. And like, for example, I used to live on one home and we, we got there as one of the very first families who unschooling families who moved there. It was maybe a handful of families there by the time that we came. And at that point, I didn't even have the intention to call in more people, but I just felt so grateful for the few people who were there.

[00:32:05] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And I started writing about it and I mean, now we are more than a hundred families, I think unschooling families living on the Island or when my kids were little, I was, I just felt I need more like minded people in my life. So I started together with another mom. We started this parenting group and I just invited them to our house once every week.

[00:32:32] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And it just became such a, an important part of our lives and such a magnet for so many people. But it needs somebody who starts it. It needs somebody who actually goes out and says, Hey, this is what we're doing. We are looking for people who are, and, you know, just sharing what's important for you. Um, and it has been life changing both for me and many other people.

[00:33:02] Rebecca Jean-Charles: So, and if you're like, if you're living in a particular area, I know you're, you know, you're not, but whoever's listening, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you're living in a particular area, you know, go out, make a post somewhere. It could also be in a local library or something. But. Do something so that people who are also sitting, maybe who are sitting in their neighbor village or town who are also believing like we're the only ones we are so alien and we don't have any like minded people around so that you guys can find each other, but somehow somebody needs to start.

[00:33:45] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And then also, there are so many people who are actually willing to move so great thing I believe is. To do, to find places that are a little bit deserted or, you know, areas where the population is growing old, where there's housing available and where they're welcoming new people. Those kinds of areas could be really good to bring in new people.

[00:34:14] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And that's also my experience, what has happened before. I was thinking

[00:34:25] Cecilie Conrad: it's, this is going to sound a little lame, but I'm saying it anyway. You can be the community. I think it's also about if you don't want to move. You can also create a nourishing neighborhood, not about you and your values, your unschooling and your children's need for friends and all these things, but just So we're speaking to an audience from many different cultures, so this is maybe going to be a little harder to talk about, but in many Western European cultures, especially in the north, where we all come from, it's It's kind of cold.

[00:35:08] Cecilie Conrad: I mean, we don't say hi in the street. We don't really, I mean, there's not a lot of neighborhood thing going on. It's not like people are wholehearted. It's just a different way to move around. Um, there's not a lot of chatting in this line in the supermarket. You don't, you know, you don't do those things.

[00:35:26] Cecilie Conrad: And I think doing that, making a little change, talk to your neighbor. Um, come up with any excuse to knock the door of maybe the elderly neighbor you have in the neighborhood. Maybe someone living alone and, and maybe do knock the door or at least if you're waiting in line in the social, in, in the local supermarket next to someone you know live two houses down the street, come up with any excuse to say a little thing, maybe carry the bag for someone who looks older or someone who's pregnant or, you know, Take a little time out of that rushed, you know, you have all of your boxes to tick and your agenda and your own thing to contribute to the local community.

[00:36:12] Cecilie Conrad: That's not that hard and it can make a little change. Some local streets have a yearly flea market where everybody's sharing their stuff and pretend to pay money for it. But it's basically just clear out the basement and come home with other stuff for the basement. It's fun and people talk and you talk about why you have 200 magazines about shoes or why you have nine fur coats or whatever it is.

[00:36:41] Cecilie Conrad: It makes you talk with your neighbors. So neighborhood ideas. Like make a yearly party or, you know, do something for the children for Halloween, like have a communication. Should we do this all dress up and whatever it is, you can create that neighborhood around yourself if you feel it's not there. And you don't have to have 10 neighbors who are unschooled.

[00:37:08] Cecilie Conrad: You can actually just create that feeling of a 

[00:37:11] Rebecca Jean-Charles: neighborhood. At least you know your neighbors. Exactly, and I believe two different, two things are really important and also very easy for us to start doing right away. And the one is asking for help and the next one is willing, be willing to receive. And I think that there are actually vital parts of creating community because.

[00:37:39] Rebecca Jean-Charles: When we're thinking of community, what is it that we want? We want togetherness, we want support, we want ease, we want to somehow share our lives. But we won't share our lives and we won't get support or ease if we never ask for help or if when somebody offers us help, we say, No, thank you, I'm fine, you know?

[00:38:00] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And so, And, and we all, including very much myself, we're so conditioned to not ask for help and not be willing to receive help unless you're basically dying. And that is not really helpful for creating community. And that is one of the easiest things I believe we can do. And I actually consciously practice it to sometimes ask for help or how was it just the other day?

[00:38:33] Rebecca Jean-Charles: I was supposed to go home. We had a meetup with, uh, the local unschoolers and I was supposed to carry a box home and one of the other families that were going by a car and the mom said like, Oh, I can just take this box and drop it at your home. And I'm like, no, no, I can carry it. And then I said, Oh no, yes, please take it.

[00:38:54] Rebecca Jean-Charles: I want to practice to receive help. And. Just these little things to just practice these muscles of receiving help and asking for help and also remembering that it can bring so much joy and pleasure and connection to actually receive help because it's You know, when you've done that yourself, and you've offered somebody help, and you see them, they are struggling, maybe carrying a really heavy bag or something, and then they say like, No, thank you.

[00:39:29] Rebecca Jean-Charles: I'm good. I can do it by myself. That, that can really feel a bit, make you a little bit upset, and feel like, oh, you know, why? Like, that would be such a nice thing to help her with. And that would be a really nice way to connect. And then you can walk home together or something like that. And 

[00:39:49] Jesper Conrad: I love it. I love the point about how, and the reason could be really interesting to explore.

[00:39:58] Jesper Conrad: Why is it we are bad at receiving help? Um, I have at some point framed it a little differently, which is if you say no to help, Then you actually take away the gift it is for the other person to be in a position to offer help. It's actually really nice to be able to help people that, and if you are in a position to help people and then people just say no, then it's like, okay, I'm worth nothing again.

[00:40:29] Jesper Conrad: Um, but yeah, interesting. And I think after this podcast, I will go on and ponder a little about what is it that have made us unwilling to ask and receive in because it is, it is, um, I can feel it when you say it is there. I 

[00:40:49] Rebecca Jean-Charles: feel for myself that I used to think that it makes me look either lazy, weak, or incompetent when I ask for help or when I accept help and coming over this and just doing it anyway.

[00:41:10] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And yeah, it just offers so much healing and connection. And that is a support that we are wishing for. And I believe then there's so many other layers to it. For example, we need to also be willing to say, No, I don't have the capacities to help you. I would love to help you, but I just really can't right now.

[00:41:39] Rebecca Jean-Charles: So that we actually, like, when I ask you for help, and you say yes, I know that you truly can and that you are not sacrificing and giving from an empty cup. And I know when you're saying yes, like you really mean yes. And when you say no, I trust that you are not doing that against me, but you are doing that to, to support your own well being and, and make sure that you are well resourced.

[00:42:19] Cecilie Conrad: There are two things in, down the line of this, and one is to be able to say, I love you and no, in any variation that's true. And the other one is to be able to receive a no. Um, to not keep asking or to not be angry about it and to not be disappointed. So if I ask a question, it's not a demand. If I ask a question, I can receive a yes or a no, exactly.

[00:42:48] Cecilie Conrad: And I'm happy with both. And I know that I'm actually quite good at asking for help. I am a very, very, I'm convinced in community living and we do a lot of community living just in the co living style. Um, that if we all do what we really are passionate about doing, if we do what we like doing, if we do what we're good at, and if, if we do what we feel we have a good flow with right now, the community flows amazingly and everybody's happy.

[00:43:20] Cecilie Conrad: Whereas if we all, you know, push through and suffer, then we're going to have to share the load and we might as well just be happy while doing it. So I'm very good at saying, I'll do this now. I'm happy doing it. And I wouldn't offer to do it if I didn't enjoy doing it. And if I need help with something, that's kind of my responsibility.

[00:43:40] Cecilie Conrad: So it is my job, but I need help. I don't want to carry it, or I don't want to drive the car, or I don't, I don't want to cook, but I have a lot of children that need food. I'm good at asking for help. I'm good at saying, I really don't want to do this right now. Would anyone want to take that torch and walk with it?

[00:44:03] Cecilie Conrad: Because I, I really believe in this high vibe life and in, in, and I trust my community to say yes or no. I really don't like being around people who say yes when they mean no. It makes me very confused. I almost get anxiety. 

[00:44:21] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Yeah. And I think it really takes us to become more clear in communicating. I believe Rene Brown said, Clarity is kindness.

[00:44:34] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And I can feel that so much. If we Like, at least I come from this culture where we talk so much around things that like, okay, if I ask you for help, now maybe you say only yes, because you don't want to hurt me, and then you say you're not really sure. If I say no to her, does she feel rejected or whatever?

[00:45:01] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And it just becomes so confusing. And then I'm thinking what you might think about me. I'm at think, and it's like so complicated. Oh, I believe we need to become courageous in our conversations and just be straightforward. And also be able to differentiate between like, I, I don't have capacities to help you right now, or I don't like this very same thing that, or this thing that you're doing right now, but that doesn't mean that I love you less.

[00:45:36] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And I believe that's also one thing that we are teaching our children and life. And that we, for example, where I didn't grow up with for me was like, I don't like what you're doing, therefore I don't like you, and that, then it becomes so tangled up with so many things, but if we can practice relationships where we can say, we can talk about a thing and don't need to make it something about ourselves.

[00:46:09] Rebecca Jean-Charles: We can honestly express, express our own needs, our own boundaries, our own opinions without making it mean anything more. And I think that would make life so much easier, so much more, um, Talking about, sorry, go on. 

[00:46:30] Cecilie Conrad: No, I'm, I'm done. Talking about this, I, I just, I was, I can hear myself say, It's okay to say no.

[00:46:41] Cecilie Conrad: So we never had like chores. The kids don't have anything they have to do. Um, at this point, obviously I expect them to brush their own teeth, but it's not like, it's not, we don't have that. We never had that. And I'll do a lot of stuff for the children still, even though they are very old, because I think being a teenager you need a lot of support and they need a lot of freedom and I can see, you know, that their energy is better used somewhere else than the dishes and I'll just do it.

[00:47:16] Cecilie Conrad: I don't mind. Um, but if I ask them to do the dishes, then I just ask. That's how we distribute work. I just say, Hey, could someone please put away the laundry? Because I'm running out of time. I can't do yoga with you later if I'm doing all the chores today. And at this point, I don't need to say it any longer, but, but for, for a lot of years, I'd have to end that sentence by saying, it's okay to say no, you can say no, because you might be doing something more important or just not have the energy or just not, I mean, whatever I ask you to do, you can always say no.

[00:47:52] Cecilie Conrad: And I remember I said that. at the end of the sentence for many years, but actually at some point, I think it's might be less than two years ago, I had a long sit down conversation with our youngest daughter. I don't know why, I can't remember the context, but she felt really pushed to do something and, and, I had to sit her down and tell her, you can always say no, no matter how tired I look, no matter how hard I push you, no matter how desperate the situation is, if something is wrong for you to do, Don't do it.

[00:48:31] Cecilie Conrad: Ever. And this is not just about how we handle community living and how we handle giving and receiving no's in, in this community or neighborhood. It's also about teaching my children. They own their own time. They own their own bodies. They own their own choices. And no one Not me, not anyone else should ever push around with that.

[00:48:56] Cecilie Conrad: If it feels wrong, it is wrong. And your no is a full sentence. Yeah. So even though I think I did a good job over all the years, two years ago, she would have been 13. So she, I should have taught her that the no is okay, but I had to really say it again. And it's, it's, it made a change for, for us. We sometimes smile and say no.

[00:49:23] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, we know. Yeah. So this is just a little finger recommendation for our listeners. You know, it's a, it's an important thing to teach your children. It's like the running joke we have with my, with our oldest son that who is unschooled and he's just such a delicate soul and he wants to, he's a very nice guy.

[00:49:44] Cecilie Conrad: So he's sometimes looking at me, what does she want me to do now? Trying to figure me out and, and we just laugh. And then I say, you know, you're unschooled, which means you can do whatever you want to do. As long as what you want to do is what I want you to do. And then we laugh, because of course, that's not what it is.

[00:50:05] Cecilie Conrad: But it is what it is in many families. It is the underlying truth in many families. You have to pull that second half of this joke out of your soul. And make sure that you're allowed to do whatever you want to do. 

[00:50:19] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And that is, I feel that is really like the tricky part so many times, right? It's so easy to just allow them so much, give them so much freedom when they're doing what we're thinking of doing.

[00:50:34] Rebecca Jean-Charles: But, you know, when you say like, you can eat as many sweets as you want to, and then they just, Binge eat sweets, and I feel like, oh my goodness, like, this didn't work out the way I thought, or recently I talked to a mom and she's like, We just came from the second hand shop and my little girl she just picked all these plastic toys, and I don't want plastic in the house, and you know, that's what's happening when you allow them to do that.

[00:51:03] Rebecca Jean-Charles: To pick themselves, or another mom I talked to, like, her boys were playing a lot of war games, and she's like, how did this happen, given that we parents are so big pacifists? And that is, I think, the really, real big challenge starts, right, when we truly need to, um, And it has nothing to do with them, it just has to do with ourselves and this rethinking what even is unconditional love and do I really mean it.

[00:51:39] Cecilie Conrad: But it also has to do with this pulling, this thing that sometimes happens in unschooling families where you, you think, you think you have to allow, um. 

[00:51:53] Jesper Conrad: You think you're not allowed almost as a 

[00:51:56] Cecilie Conrad: parent. So I have things that my kids do not. Allow, quote unquote, I have thing I have, you know, I wouldn't let anything go.

[00:52:08] Cecilie Conrad: And if I feel, Oh, this is too much or too little or too strange or too something, I'll tell them. Totally. We'll have a conversation about what war really is, why Holocaust jokes are not funny or, you know, and, and, and, and, but if every, everything, or why we don't want pink plastic that smells of chemicals in our bedroom.

[00:52:30] Cecilie Conrad: I mean, I'll just. talk to them about it, which is, I have my value system. I have my personality, I have my quirkiness and I have my flaws, but, but I'm having them inside my mothering and, and that's all good and fine. And they're going to have to live with me being the only mom they'll ever have. I'm doing my best.

[00:52:49] Cecilie Conrad: And, and some of the things I do are not very good, but we all have to live with that. 

[00:52:55] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And we still obviously have the responsibility as parents and there is. And like, we, we are the ones setting the frame and including the boundaries, and we also have rights to speak up for our own needs, and we don't need to, like, we all can get together.

[00:53:14] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And like, for example, in our family, we don't have rules, we have agreements, and we also don't have chores, we have contributions. So it's more. Like it more feels like, Hey, we are all together. We are all a team. And also as parents, we have, we will always have the responsibility and like unschooling doesn't mean that we let go of any responsibility.

[00:53:44] Rebecca Jean-Charles: In fact, we probably often take so much more conscious responsibility because many mainstream parents just don't. like do what everybody else does. And I believe like, we get the question so often, like, why do you homeschool? Why do you do these things? And I believe hardly any school parent ever gets the question, why did you choose to put your kid into school?

[00:54:12] Rebecca Jean-Charles: I mean, that's a bit odd. So, and most parents would probably also not really know what to, what to answer to that. 

[00:54:24] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. And we, we, also have our kids 15 hours more per week at least. Uh, so there's so much more collaboration, questions, and dialogue, , that takes place., if I look at my 20 years of parenting, I can see I've luckily evolved by being a parent through all the years and by learning from my wife and learning on my own and growing up as a person. My dialogue to my children started out , as orders, , sometimes, then it became orders disguised as questions, but it still was an order.

[00:55:07] Jesper Conrad: Yeah, yeah, totally. And, and now. It is a, hey man, it would be really nice. Uh, it's a dialogue and of course they have also grown up, but I'm just saying this to, to also give people out there the ease of mind saying it is a journey. For me, it has taken 20 years. Uh, I was. Absolutely very not perfect in the start and I had to learn a lot and I have developed a lot and my wife will definitely agree that I have, I have grown a lot as a parent.

[00:55:39] Jesper Conrad: Um, and I just, it goes, I want to circle it back to the whole village. Who did I have to model fatherhood behavior after? 

[00:55:50] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Exactly. 

[00:55:50] Jesper Conrad: And that, and my wife is not a father, so I had a lot of inspiration from her during the years. But if I had grown up in a nurturing neighborhood or an intentional village or as in the evolvedness as Darcia Naves calls it, then, then you would, then I would have been among other parents a lot, seeing how they spoke to their children.

[00:56:16] Jesper Conrad: See, oh, I like what this guy is doing. I don't like what that guy is doing. So there is this need for, Being among other parents and not needing to figure everything out alone and not needing to figure it out from a podcast or a book. Podcasts are helpful in the way that you hear these long format dialogues around.

[00:56:36] Jesper Conrad: But reality is awesome. 

[00:56:38] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Just want to say one thing regarding what you said. Then you did the questions thing. You asked You said the orders, but there's questions.

[00:56:48] Rebecca Jean-Charles: One of my kids, when they are asked, Do you, do you want to do the dishes? Then they would say, No, thank you. The same answers. Would you like an ice cream? No, thank you. And it's so, it's, So brilliant because it reminds us like, okay, ask the question and know it's a valid answer. And I wanted to say also, I believe we can, we also, a very important ingredient for our parenting is also grace and also remembering that if we, If it would require us to be wise elders in order to be parents, we would get children when we would be 80 or something.

[00:57:34] Rebecca Jean-Charles: And it's part of parenting to be imperfect and to learn. But absolutely, it does speed up things when we get to be in these environments and real life environments where we get to have models who live this life that we want to bring to our children. 

[00:57:57] Cecilie Conrad: Well, I think that could maybe even be a third conversation.

[00:58:00] Cecilie Conrad: The whole, I have a friend who says, parenting is basically just, you know, you're training to become a good, become a grandparent. The grandparent is, is the gold. So, but where are the grandparents now in this modern world? How do we find grandparents for our children if our parents are not available? My, some of mine are dead, so that's a very unavailable point of view, but some fall out with their parents, live in other countries than their parents.

[00:58:28] Cecilie Conrad: So, and what role does the grandparent or the elder, I'm an older sibling, so I have much younger nephews and nieces, so I have this Interesting role with that. And I mean, we could talk about, well, that's just not going to be now because it's going to be long. But you know, what, what did we lose when we lost the grandparents?

[00:58:49] Cecilie Conrad: Because we did lose them. They don't play a central role. Most grandparents don't, you don't live with your grandparents, you don't even live close to your grandparents. Many children grow up without having a close relationship with their grandparents. And what did they, what's happening there? There's something very precious is being lost. 

[00:59:06] Jesper Conrad: Rebecca, , we are at the end of this conversation, but we should take another one to continue it. That could be fun. It's fun talking with you. So. Thank you. Thank you for your time. It was wonderful to explore these subjects with you, and I look forward to a whole grandparent talk 

[00:59:24] Cecilie Conrad: absolutely. It's been amazing today. 

[00:59:27] Rebecca Jean-Charles: Yeah, the same. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Yeah. Thank you.